Q: What are the quintessential elements in your artistic creation? What are the sources of these elements?

The elements in my work include “space,” “point,” “circle,” and “triangle.” These elements are inspired by Chinese characters per se instead of the calligraphic art. The art of Chinese calligraphy involves movement, but I rather focus on the form and structure. The “Eight Principles of Yong” (the eight brushstrokes of the Chinese character “永”) contains the point,line and plane that Kandinsky talks about, but the expression of Chinese characters is more reserved and subtle. For instance, the “point” in Chinese characters is never a fully round dot. The “point” in the “Eight Principles of Yong” is actually oval. The shape of the point has been changed and exaggerated a little to create a sense of harmony and a relationship to the other brushstrokes. There are also four points in the character “然,” but they are all placed in different heights and with various lengths, constituting the character’s beautiful form. Each Chinese character possesses its own integral structure; some are in elaborate brushstrokes,and some in simple ones. An example would be “明” (bright or brightness), which is consisted of two parts, “日” (sun) and “月” (moon). The two parts are in different sizes, and the combination creates a nicely corresponding harmony and a firm structure. Another example would be the point on top of the character “寶.” It could be written in various ways depending on the writers. Some just do it in a quick manner, and it can be as simple as that. On the other hand, I would study how the writer writes the point, why a twist in the brushstroke, how many degrees the twist is, etc. The length and precision of the twist matters, too. So, I incorporate the spatiality of Chinese characters and my learning of calligraphy into the concept of abstract painting, which individually embodies “image” and “idea.” Chinese calligraphy is “symbolic,” meaning it is suggestive in a way. For example, if I add an oval circle around both the Chinese characters “哭” (cry) and “笑” (laugh), they would look like a person crying or smiling. The two characters do not depict human faces, but they are suggestive in that way and give you that feeling. This aspect influences me a lot. So, Chinese calligraphy affects my artistic creation in a visible way in terms of its structural and symbolic aspects.

Also, the form and sensibility of Chinese antiques, like bronze and porcelain, are aesthetically stimulating for me. I do not study antiques but simply admire them. I appreciate simple, unadorned and peculiar objects. There were some decorative objects in my childhood home in Nanjing, China, such as furniture, candleware, incense burner, and wineware. These simple objects all influenced me in a subtle and undetectable way. Other stuff such as Mexican, Oceanic and African historic tools and objects as well as children’s drawings also interest me a lot. They reveal a kind of artistic approach that is closer to our primitive instinct.

Q: Is such a preference for the simple and the primitive similar to Gauguin’s pursuit?

Gauguin paid more attention to symbolism. He was also more deliberate in making himself different from other painters. I am free, but I am also influenced by these great masters. From this perspective, I need to get rid of my own baggage, such as the academic preconceptions.

Q: Speaking about academicism, when you entered the Department of Arts of Taiwan Provincial Normal School (now National Taipei University of Education) in 1950, what did they teach in the school?

They taught primarily outdoor painting, still life painting, plaster sketch, etc. However, these practices did not satisfy me as they were quite rigid and fixed. Truth be told, our teachers did not really limit us in a certain way. However, their teaching objective was to train teachers, so their teaching materials had to be normative and guided. At that time, I did not know this was called the academic. I only felt in my heart that “painting” was not an easy job. I tried to refine myself and to improve faster. So, I would go and see art exhibitions, read art magazines, and attend art-related lectures and speeches. What they taught in school was not difficult for me, so I wanted to find different things and went to study under Li Chun-Shan later.

Q: Could you talk about how you came to learn with Li Chun-Shan?

I saw his articles about Western arts on newspapers and magazines. From his analysis of painting, I could tell he was into theory and had done much study. Later, I met Oyan Wen- Yung. His young sister was a student at Taipei Second Girls’ High School (now Taipei Municipal Zhongshan Girls’ High School), and Li Chun-Shan was an art teacher there. Oyan knew Li because of his sister, so I went with him to visit Li. At that time, he had just returned to Taiwan.

Q: Please talk about Li Chun-Shan’s influence to you.

The major influence was the change in concept, mainly “how to see paintings.” The Normal School did not teach such a thing but only sketch and painting. Li simply made conversations with us, and that was his way of teaching. For example, one of his students was experimenting, using thin lines in one painting and thick ones in another. He would then say that an art master such as Picasso would not change every other day. No matter his blue period or the pink period took time to manifest, didn’t it? This was precisely a mistake I had made. If he talked about Kandinsky, Klee, and Matisse, we would look for these artists’ catalogues and find out how they had painted at a young age and how they had transformed. In later days, whenever I was fond of any artists, I would find their catalogues to study their development. The changes are all interconnected instead of taking place out of the blue.

Q: How did Li Chun-Shan teach you to see?

He would teach us not to limit our attention to one single part and how to find the things we looked for. For instance, I want to paint these three objects now (three cups). Naturally, this one is bigger and that one smaller. This is composition. However, Li would teach us to look at the three objects together, which could form a triangle. This approach was different from the sketch lesson we learned in school. In terms of painting portrait, which we focused on poses and proportion, Li did not make a fuss about it. One line over here, and another over there; he focused on the form of the ensemble. He would approach the subject lightly, and then, capture the important form.

Another thing was to look at the bigger, whole picture, the work in its entirety as well as the series of works by an artist. He taught us that looking at paintings could be divided into three stages: the first one is to “appreciate,” the second to “study,” and the third, “create.” In the first stage, you have to continuously “look” at others’ as well as your own works. In the “study” stage, we would go to the library to do research, reading articles by predecessors and the art sections of newspapers, which we could study and better our understanding. The third stage, “create,” means to digest and transform what you have observed, studied and learned into your own works.

Q: What were the major changes in your art after you studied under Li Chun-Shan?

It would be “anti-naturalism” and “anti-tradition.” My idea of painting began to move towards the direction of “cosmological,” and my concept of painting was freed. I preferred to explore and study post-impressionism because the works of Cézanne, Gauguin, and Van Gogh had begun to challenge the tradition. These three artists changed the concept of the entire century to come whereas Picasso and Matisse were still part of this context and did not really influence the next century. Modernism came from these great masters. Why is Cézanne called “the father of modern painting”? We had studied the reasons. I would say I have conducted a fairly thorough study on the works from Impressionism to the mid-20th century.

After such study, I started looking at a painting in a different light instead of traditional means such as the composition, perspective, anatomy, etc. I would study and appreciate it in terms of the “essence of painting. The reason for that is because perspective and anatomy are all related to the techniques of painting, which should be employed only after a subject is established. However, after the invention of photography, the function of realistic representation in painting has been replaced. Returning to the “essence of painting” to explore the art, I have had a wider range of subjects, an expanded vision, and a large frame of reference. I am able to take in and let go of more things as well as change more things by myself.

Q: Apart from Li Chun-Shan’s influence, you have lived in Milan for a long time. Could you talk about how Western arts have influenced you?

Although I am an abstract painter, but American abstract expressionism did not influence me a lot; I was rather deeply influenced by European painters. I was quite under the influence of Modigliani. His work embodies a kind of meditation, a human nostalgia that materializes our humanity. It can never be seen in other animal species. He has a relatively reserved style. It is not explicitly expressive but contains an inner, spiritual artist quality. For example, all his human figures are painted without pupils; it represents meditation, a kind of thinking, which I find similar to Chinese Buddha statues. It shows that he has been influenced by the East. The gigantic Buddha statues in China all have half-closed and half-open eyes. Of course, there are religious statues with wide-open eyes, like Zhang Fei and Guan Yu, but the ones with high spiritual attainment have the half-closed eyes. This is exactly the Eastern element, one of the origin of Eastern spirituality. It carries more wisdom, it is mysterious, and it embodies a kind of “peculiar beauty.” In fact, nowadays, I think the East and West are mutually influencing, and the world is one large family actually. On the other hand, the philosophy and ideas of Surrealism are also inspiring for me. There is also that “peculiar beauty” or “peculiar phenomenon” in the Surrealist works. Their combination of different time and space affect me as well.

Q: Your work was predominantly surrealist before you went to Milan. After you moved to Milan, why did you shift to an abstract style?

After I went to Europe, I saw a lot of really good and nicely painted works by Surrealist artists. I did not think I could outdo them, so I changed the course of my art. I decided I would bring in Chinese elements and create art that showed my own personality, distinctively different from others. We received Chinese education and concepts. It would not work if you abandoned them all and directly adopted the Western ideas. You could overthrow the things that no longer made sense, but you also need to preserve some things. For instance, the “lines” in Chinese painting are unique and incomparable, so is our ink painting. Therefore, the “element of calligraphy” in my work exemplifies the spirit of ancient Chinese culture. I pay attention to “space,” which is also an Eastern element. So is “simplicity and elegance.” However, I admit that I have not handled the last very well because I have a bright and hearty personality. It can be seen in my use of colors, which tends to be brighter and clearer, bordering on the colors used in Fauvism rather than being very strong and intense as those industrial colors.

As a matter of fact, if you pay close attention to my earlier Surrealist painting, you would already see geometric shapes. What I do now is that I take out and use the geometric shapes to pursue the image. The image is mysterious; it surfaces in my painting through the working of the subconscious. As for the intentionally heavier or lighter touch, it reveals my emotion and psychological perception. The image is a world of my own.

Q: You have mentioned in different places that music influences your art making. How do you convert the audio experience into the visual expression? Could you please elaborate on that?

The vocabulary of music is melody, counterpoint, harmony, proportion, length, and strength. They could all be found in my painting. Arts are interrelated. For example, only the conductor would know the musical ensemble, the sounds of the string and wind instruments, their volumes, parts to stress in the music, etc. That is why the conductor must have a profound understanding of the music to perform well. Painting is the same. You must understand the structure to know when to paint a point, how large the point should be, and what it does in the painting.

Q: How do you usually start a painting?

I usually do a lot of random sketching to find my inspiration. Whenever I have a good image, I keep it and revise it repeatedly. Then, I compare these revisions to see which ones have more potentials and how large they should be. Afterwards, I would draw a rough sketch, decide on the colors, and start painting it in oil colors. It is generally like that.

Q: How long does it usually take to complete a painting?

It depends. Some take months, and some years. I just leave the painting there, and finish it when I have an inspiration. Art is not a precise mathematical equation as in two plus two equals four, neither is regular. I would judge my feelings at that moment. If the effect of the painting could not be increased or decreased, it has reached its destination. Every painting depends on the situation of the time.

Q: The lines in your painting seem to suggest a sense of hand-drawing?

Yes, it is because when I am painting, the use of force creates light or heavy touches as well as fast or slow paces. It is adjusted according to what the painting requires.

Q: What does the points signify in your work?

A “point” is a space, a symbol. The “point” itself carries meanings and occupies a spot in the space, inducing an association in the mind of the viewer. Association is a very mysterious thing. Sometimes, I just paint spontaneously, and add the point at last. This also implies the Chinese influence. It is kind of like “the finishing touch” or “the single red flower in the green foliage.” Truth be told, it is simply giving yourself a blank space to work on. To give you an example, painting a point at this spot is like digging a well. Nowadays, people no longer need a well to get water. It might be like I dig a pond to keep fish. It all depends on where I want to place the pond. It is actually a living space, and I arrange my forms, compositions, symbols, and points in this space, a kind of spiritual arrangement, an arrangement of life. It is not done in a deliberate manner. It is rather a spontaneous arrangement, a “purposeless purpose.” It relies on the “spiritual density” that requires a compact unity of the colors, lines and compositions. However, the most essential thing in abstract painting is still the “intuitive sense of beauty,” meaning the intuitive perception.

Q: What are your principle and idea of using colors?

I usually use contrasting colors. Some of them are mixed by myself. I would apply the same colors for many times, namely the technique of flat color application. This is also an Eastern method. My earlier works have thicker coloring, giving viewers a sense of heaviness. The coloring now is thinner, lighter and brighter. I am more relaxed now, always maintaining a calm and carefree mood. Colors influence each other. It has something to do with one’s personality. I used to be more rigid and uptight, but I am freer now. Sometimes I do not care about being really neat and tidy. I focus more on the ensemble effect.

Q: Your work is composed of points, lines, planes and blocks of colors. However, the texture of the composition is as rational as it is warm, fun, and playful. There is a kind of “perception” or something invisible taking place in the work, which sets it apart from Kandinsky’s rationalism. Could you talk about this?

Basically, my creation is to give imagination a space. It is a natural expression of the subconscious. I focus on developing the essence of painting, the essence of art to be exact. This is also the meaning of life. I do not simply see the painting itself but the animals, plants, and minerals. As long as there is material, there is life. It is infinite. Animals do not have thoughts, but they are living existences. Every life form has a different explanation, which leads to a discussion of the whole universe. Actually, you cannot see the universe; it is invisible, intangible, imaginary. We are not concerned with the universe of the scientists. Artists’ universe of is created out of imagination. My work is to continuously explore, discover, and search. It is a bit intellectual and philosophical, but it is also embedded with my feelings.

Q: Are the elements in your work becoming less complicated and simpler? What inspired you to move toward this direction?

It is similar to the process of wine making. Wine needs to go through the filtering, fermenting, and refining procedures. It needs time, space, and human efforts. You cannot will it into the way you want, nor can you force it. Otherwise, you would kill it and make it stiff. You cannot be too casual because that would lack seriousness. The form, composition, artistic mood of the work all depend on a good balance between being deliberate and unintentional as well as experimenting and being creative in a spontaneous way that is not too casual. The point is to “paint lively paintings,” “paint paintings lively,” and “live as you paint.” When you looked at my sketches, you could still see some forms. There were already some geometric shapes in
them. When I paint now, I remove a lot of elements and only keep the purest ones, only the image.

Q: How are your works after 2010 different from the earlier works?

There are some differences. My early works are more complicated and elaborate, so I actually consider my present works better. After eliminating a lot of unnecessary things, they have become simpler. My old works were inconsistent as I was still experimenting. Now I am expressing. My works in the past were weaker, but my works now have my own style. In the past, I was careless and I did not care if a point was added or not. Therefore, it would not matter if one point was to be added or removed from my earlier works. However, you could immediately tell if one point is added or taken out in my works now because they are simpler, more compact, reserved and characteristic of my style.

I do not consider texture very important now. Like building a house, I used to pay attention to small things, like tiles. Now I do not do that anymore. I focus on bigger things and space. That is enough. The rest is not redundant, though. I just do not feel necessary to emphasize on the details. It is similar to women picking clothes. You like those patterns and designs, and some people just like the colors and how they match on them without paying more attention to patterns and details. So, I try my best to reduce the texture, and I might have some “occasional fun” sometimes.

Q: In your artistic career that is over six decades, what is the essence of artistic creation you have been insisting on?

I want to be simple, which is different from being simplistic. My so-called simple is similar to drinking good wine, in which the quality outweighs the quantity. Later, I might paint similar paintings, but instead of imitating other artists, I imitate myself with slight variations to make them look more smooth. When I paint, I think about the entirety and even things outside the entirety of the painting, breaking the space of the image and connecting to the imaginative space. Each painting is like a world in its own. In some foreign museums, they might put only one work on a single wall, and that work itself manifests a single universe.

No matter how old I get, my mind remains young. This is also influenced by the Western masters. When I look at Matisse, Picasso, and Miró, they all lived a long life; their works became brighter and lighter in their silver years, which reminded me of children’s drawing. They painted without any burden, very candid, broad-minded, and bright. I like being straightforward and uninhibited as well as clear and clean. However, our society today is not that simple but rather complicated. Things like weddings, funerals, festivals and holidays are all burdening tasks. I only go with the flow now without taking these things too seriously. Only in this way could I concentrate on my own study.

Nevertheless, artistic creation cannot go with the flow. It has to be exact. On top of that, it needs to be natural and spontaneous without being too casual. You cannot obtain this easily and freely. When I go to art exhibitions and listen to music, I absorb and learn things that suit me. Then, I turn them into my own creation. This reminds me of Picasso. When he was eating, he saw a fish bone that was beautiful to him. So, he burned it (rubbing) and turned it into his own work. This is a mean. It differs from a purpose. I paint without paying much attention to purposes, but means are very important. My artistic creation has an idea and a direction, but it does not have a precise purpose. I simply follow an idea and continue this study. Yet, I do not use whatever means possible, but choose suitable ones to develop my work. Therefore, my painting does not project a possible outcome.

Q: Have you ever had any barriers in making art? How did you break through them? What is the current state of your artistic career and your state of mind in art making?

The answer would be positive. When I do not feel inspired, I just leave the painting as it is and stop looking at it. I listen to music, watch movies, and paint again when I feel inspired. Sometimes, when I look at a painting after a few months, I could complete it with just a few small revisions, which I could not think of previously. So, you cannot force it in art.

I would say that the present stage, the recent two or three years, is the height of my career. My artistic creation is very peaceful now. It reflects my state of mind. Now that I have Xiao Wan (Ho’s wife) helping me in life, I could concentrate on painting.