在藍色之間的透入與超脫

談謝貽娟的作品與生活美學－陸潔民訪談錄

采泥藝術（以下簡稱采）：謝貽娟是一位以藍色為創作主調的藝術家，是否可以先跟我們談談藝術家謝貽娟（以下簡稱Jo）的作品和藍色之間的關係？
陸潔民（以下簡稱陸）：談論Jo的作品和藍色之間的關係，宗白華的美學理論說的好：「以悲劇的情緒透入人生，以幽默的情緒超脫人生」。藝術做為一個發洩的出口，反映藝術家的情感，所以Jo會選擇藍色，不是快樂的紅色，或是象徵希望的綠色。對她來說，這是一個釋放的管道，可以轉變情緒到畫面上，是一個可以享受、開心的過程。所以「以悲劇的情緒透入人生」是一個藝術創作的過程，Jo的狀態是她成為特殊藝術家的因素。若是「以幽默的方式超脫人生」，其實也不是跳脫，而是人生的兩種狀態，你看她在開幕的時候，脫下鞋子，跟大家有說有笑的，就是一種幽默的表現。

采：如果再深入探討顏色，也是藍色的部分，謝貽娟是一位以「顏色」為創作主幹的藝術家，您如何看待這樣的創作風格？又如何看待謝貽娟的「藍」？
陸：藍本來就是情緒的色彩，有很複雜的情緒在裡面，Jo的藍不是只有憂鬱，這樣的說法太淺了。用她的說法，可以分為很多層次，就像不同的光譜一樣，她的情緒是非常細膩的，從深藍到淺藍，形成一個光圈。她運用不同的材料，讓整個深藍有一種立體空間的建立，不是平面的，呈現出有如太陽周邊釋放能量的火焰般線條，而在火焰線條旁邊的淺藍點綴，則讓整個畫面有一種動感，如同一種能量的表現。或許「方法簡單」的境界更高。看到Jo的藍，就會聯想到克萊因的藍，相當有名，克萊因的藍說不定也和他當時的狀態有關係。

采：Jo曾經表示說她從克萊因的藍色中，體會到一種內心的感動。
陸：在克萊因的藍色中可以感受到藍色的能量，以穩定情緒矛盾的狀態，一種在幽默與悲傷之中的狀態，所以可以從藍色來探究情緒的轉換。一位好的藝術家，一定會流露情緒在作品之中，畫如其人。在創作的過程中，情緒透過潛意識流露於作品之中，讓觀賞者感受到情緒。所以為什麼我們看完梵谷的畫，會覺得很憂鬱，比較悲傷。不是想到他的人生很悲傷，而是內藏於他作品的悲傷情緒所使然。所以欣賞Jo的畫，你可以很表面的看，是一個極簡的符號，也可以深入的感受那糾纏於悲劇與幽默之間的狀態。

采：所以Jo的作品有一種矛盾的情緒交織於作品之中，但是看起來又很平衡。
陸：對，永遠有一種矛盾，太極就是一種矛盾，又是一種平衡。

采：您剛剛有提到「極簡符號」，觀賞者可以如何從「極簡藝術」的角度來詮釋Jo的作品？
陸：極簡藝術的表達難，難在於精神狀態要可以支撐整個藝術品，精神狀態可以簡化為能量的表現、情緒的發揮，這需要個人的感受力。或許，不是每個人都喜歡極簡藝術，能欣賞極簡藝術的人，本身要具備有非常高的審美能力。一個精神狀態很高的人，就會喜歡極簡的環境。所以欣賞Jo作品的人，可能自身就有一些哲學思想的底蘊，有精神狀態的能量。

采：一般人一開始可能會認為Jo的作品有距離感，會覺得很抽象或是內涵很深，較難理解，您是怎麼看的呢？
陸：我一開始也不太能理解。就像以前我看到草間彌生的作品，一開始也不理解這些黑點的含意，但是後來她持之以恆的創作，持續不斷的畫，這一切就是集合主義和重複主義的不斷運作。更重要的是，這個圓點就是她自己治病的過程，創作的過程可以穩定她的情緒。藝術創作本身也是一個療癒的過程，是一個穩定情緒的習慣性動作，所以才會是享受憂鬱或是痛苦的狀態。

采：有些觀賞者認為Jo的作品有療癒的作用，是否也是因為觀賞者感受到藝術家和作品之間的療癒關係？
陸：這是觀賞者的層面。還有移情作用，就是說觀賞者的人生遭遇會影響他個人的理解，反應他的需求，他會透過Jo的作品看到這個部分，這也是很奇妙的。

采：這是不是說畫作是一個開放性的文本，本身要透過觀賞者的詮釋才會完整？
陸：沒錯。所以「美」不是作品本身的本質，而是觀賞者賦予的。美的觀點因人而異，不是這個事物的美醜與否，而是你心裡有沒有這個美的境界。

采：所以觀賞者在欣賞Jo的作品，不是要求提供一個答案，也是可以有自身詮釋的空間？
陸：藝術家都不會給很窄的答案，他反而會把你帶到更深的境界，就像Jo的「非空間」一樣，她其實帶領觀賞者進入一個更深的哲學思想裡。她看似回答你的問題，其實又帶你進入一個抽絲剝繭的辯證過程中，讓觀賞者和作品有更深的互動。其實我也在觀看Jo作品的過程中，反省我自己，想辦法去探討Jo的畫如何理解，如何幫助觀賞者瞭解Jo的畫。對於觀賞者來說，自身需要養成自己的修養，自身所養成的美學知識才是瞭解Jo作品的管道。沒有感受過孤獨，如何瞭解Jo的畫作，這個問題是關乎觀賞者的。

采：您是否可以跟我們分享第一次看到Jo作品的感覺？
陸：一開始不清楚這位藝術家，就是看到克萊因的藍重現眼前，感覺藝術家想要表達一種能量，藉著畫流露一種狀態。以前我們也沒有看過誰這樣做過，她等於是創造一種新的感覺。我們會被新的感覺所吸引，總會強調藝術家要有「鮮明獨特的風格」、「難以取代的技法」、「良好的品格與修養」。我在藝術史還有藝術市場上的涉獵範圍夠廣泛，所以被稱為專家，以此來評斷藝術家是否有創意。如果不是來自於原創，而是抄襲，那就無須論及哲理和精神狀態的課題。

采：您自己是怎麼看待Jo的藍色和克萊因的藍色之間的區別？
陸：我認為Jo在受到克萊因的藍色啟發之後，又營造出點、線、面的立體空間，表現出她的獨特性，並進而將自己的情緒、哲理帶入創作，產生一個和克萊因截然不同的作品。這樣的作品形態和她的哲理、她的精神狀態有關，是完全屬於Jo自身的作品。

采：您說在Jo的創作中看到新的表現法，身為亞洲藝術圈的資深觀察家以及顧問，在看了這麼多藝術家與作品之後，您覺得謝貽娟的作品在有什麼獨特性？
陸：基本上她的作品是極簡藝術，表達狀態能量的藝術作品，她是屬於極簡藝術的抽象繪畫。但是有關定位這個問題，需要時間來見證。

采：現代許多藝術作品的創作技法或理念講求中西合璧，比方說：中學為體，西學為用，或者是相反的歷程。您個人對於此點有什麼樣的看法？您認為謝貽娟的作品是否也可用這樣的角度來詮釋？如何詮釋？
陸：或許可以從作品的哲學內涵還有藍色的使用來討論。Jo是藝術哲學博士，她本身應該有涉獵老莊思想，同時克萊因的藍也深深影響她，加上草書是中國最原始的抽象藝術，Jo結合了克萊因的藍和中國書法線條，產生東西方藝術哲學的碰撞火花。Jo的圖騰就是草書的能量吸收，每一筆都是草書的流暢線條，這些線條包圍了藍色光環，產生能量結構的最小分子狀態，做為一種微觀的呈現。《粉末系列》的圓如同太極外面的那個圓，象徵中國古代的「天圓地方」：圓就是「天圓」，框就是「地方」。延伸到做人處世上，乃是外在規矩，內在則有強大的包容力。因此，Jo的作品可以用中國書法詮釋，也可以用東方哲理的角度理解。她將中國的太極用藍色來表現，這是她心裡的太極，有深藍、淺藍，太極的S型構圖和點，形成《粉末系列》的火焰線條。這些線條有這樣的曲度，如同太極的八卦符號。這裡有著克萊因的藍、有著太極，但是她又創造了一個新的形式，表現屬於Jo的藍，屬於Jo的太極，就是她的「非空間」。

采：整體而言，Jo的作品並不是和生活有距離的，而是和一切扣連關係的？
陸：像我今天講的「悲劇」、「幽默」就是太極。「悲劇的情緒透入人生」就是黑，「幽默的情緒超脫人生」就是白，黑與白是同時存在的，並且相互循環交替。一切都有悲傷，有疲憊，然後在痛苦之中摸索，尋找智慧，然後產生快樂愉悅的心，週而復始。這是一種能量狀態，一種無限循環。如果「以幽默的情緒超脫人生」，就是「我接受」，人生就會穩定的多了。所以在Jo的作品中，可以讀到很多的人生體驗，看懂她的畫，就可以得到人生的無限能量。其實，一個深刻的藝術品是不能說的太清楚的，因為這也關係到觀賞者的審美高度、觀賞閱歷、廣博的知識。今天希望可以給觀賞者一個啟發。其實，真正的差異是反映在「觀賞者」上。藝術是既簡單又複雜，既千篇一律又變化萬千，看似簡單，但是深入探討，你的感受又會帶來無限能量，這就是太極，也是Jo的作品和生活之間的關係。

采：最後如果用一句話形容謝貽娟老師的作品與生活美學之間的關係，您會怎麼形容？
陸：就是我一開始引用宗白華的美學理論：「以悲劇的情緒透入人生，以幽默的情緒超脫人生」，這就是人生的「非空間」，誰越早到達那個「非空間」的境界，誰越幸福。對於Jo來說是「非空間」，對於我們這些藝術愛好者，那個「非空間」是「精神家園」，我們這些藝術的同好都是在藝術的氛為裡打滾，在人生的痛苦裡享受，然後提升智慧，增長見識，然後達到我們心中的那個空間，就是「精神家園」。當我們到達那個境界的時候，我們既是「鑑賞家」又是「收藏家」，又能夠瞭解人生的道理，這是一種很美好的狀態，一個太極表現的理想世界。雖然很難達到，但是你在這個追求的道路上就是幸福的。你很難到達那個高度，因為我們畢竟是個人，只要那個方向是對的，就是幸福的。

陸潔民，曾任台灣拍賣公司的拍賣官以及顧問，臺灣畫廊協會秘書長，中國上海及北京國際畫廊博覽會藝術委員會委員，2004年受聘為中央美院客座教授。現任臺灣畫廊協會資深顧問及拍賣官，台北國際藝術博覽會ART TAIPEI顧問，台北YOUNG ART 藝術博覽會顧問， 上海藝術博覽會顧問，上海泓盛拍賣公司顧問，台灣IC之音『藝術ABC』節目主持人。

The Grand Blue

A Discussion of Jo Hsieh’s Work and Life Aesthetics: An Interview with Jimmy Lu

Chini Art Gallery (hereafter Chini): Blue is the main theme of artist Jo Hsieh’s work. Could you first tell us a little about the relationship between the colour blue and Jo’s work?
Jimmy Lu (Lu Jiemin) (hereafter Lu): When it comes to the relationship between Jo’s work and the colour blue, I think the aesthetic theories of Zong Bai-hua explain it pretty well:‘Passing through life in a tragic mood, transcending it with a humorous mood.’If art is a way to vent our feelings, then the emotions of the artist will be reflected in their works. Thus, Jo chose blue – not a happy red, or a hopeful green. For her, art is a means of release. Through it she can transform her moods into artwork so that they can be shared, and so that she herself is happy.‘Passing through life in a tragic mood’is an essential process for artistic creation, and thus Jo’s own condition has been a factor in her becoming an extraordinary artist. As for when she is able to‘transcend life through humor’, this too is not an escape from life, it is rather the second of life’s two states. When you see her at the opening ceremony take off her shoes, and then talk and laugh with everyone, this is an expression of humour.

Chini: If we once again delve into the world of colour, of which blue is a part: Jo is an artist who works almost entirely in blue. What do you think of such an artistic style? How do you regard the‘ blue’of Jo Hsieh?
Lu: Jo’s blue is an incredibly beautiful blue, but it is also a highly melancholy blue. Blue itself is an emotional colour, which contains great depths of feeling. Jo’s blues are thus not merely melancholy, it would be overly simplistic to say that. To borrow her own explanation, there are many, many different blues. It is as though blue is a whole colour spectrum in itself. Jo is meticulous in her attention to detail when it comes to blue. Thus, when you look at her blues from deepest navy blue through to iridescent sky blues they form a circle of light. She also works in many different materials. She gives her deepest blues a three-dimensional foundation so that they are never just flat. Around their periphery they thus give off streaks, like the tongues of flame given off by the sun when releasing energy. Next to these flames she applies a little light blue, giving the whole a sense of dynamism. There is a kind of energy to her work, manifested in those streaks of flame. However, the overall colours exemplify the state of tragedy. Jo’s philosophical thought is expressed in her paintings. I believe that the simplest, minimalistic methods are the most brilliant, although the process of creation must have involved much reflection on her part. Seeing Jo’s blues, we recall the blues of Klein. Klein’s blues are also extremely famous, and most likely Klein’s blues also reflected his contemporary state of mind.

Chini: Jo has previously said that she was deeply moved by Klein’s blues.
Lu: That would be because in Klein’s blues, Jo perceives the potential that blue has, that it can stabilize wild and contradictory moods, that it can be half-melancholy and yet half-humorous… From blue it is possible to explore changing moods and states. We believe that a good artist is capable of expressing their feelings in their works, and that artworks resemble their creator. In the creative process, feelings and mood unconsciously seep into the work, so that viewers perceive them in the finished artwork.This is why, after viewing Van Gogh’s work, we feel melancholy and sad. It is not because we are thinking of the sadness of his life, but because of the sorrow that lies in his works themselves. Wealthy people buy Van Gogh paintings so that through his paintings they can experience for themselves the suffering they do not normally experience, and this is their most precious quality. Thus, when appreciating a painting by Jo, it can be seen as a simple minimalist symbol but can also allow the state of being tangled up between tragedy and humor to be deeply felt.

Chini: Jo’s pieces weave together contradictory moods and feelings, yet, on viewing them, they appear balanced.
Lu: Yes, exactly. Eternity is a contradiction. Tai Chi (the Absolute, the Supreme Ultimate) is a kind of contradiction but also a kind of equilibrium.
Chini: You mentioned just now a‘minimalist symbol’. Is it possible for viewers to use perspectives derived from the minimalist movement to interpret Jo’s work?
Lu: Minimalist artistic expression is extremely difficult. The difficulty lies in that the artist’s mental and psychological state underpins their artworks. Mental state can be transformed into a capacity for expression and the displaying of emotion, and this is a highly individual feeling. In truth, it’s not everyone who likes minimalist art. It takes a person with an extremely developed aesthetic to really appreciate its beauty. A person of refinement will like a minimalistic environment. So the people who like Jo’s works are most likely themselves think philosophically, and have mental state energy.

Chini: On first viewing Jo’s works the average individual may feel the works are very distant. They may well consider them abstract and with profound implications, but ultimately hard to understand. What do you think?
Lu: At first, I didn’t really understand them either. However, I have been viewing paintings for two decades, and I know how to keep an open mind and learn to appreciate the works of such unusual artists. It’s a little like when I first came across the works of Yayoi Kusama. Seeing all those black dots, at first I also thought there was nothing to them. Yet after she persevered in creating such works for so many years, I discovered that she is constantly reiterating her own collectivist, repetitive doctrine. Those round dots are her own process of treatment. If she does not paint those round dots, she becomes agitated and it is only painting that can soothe her mood. Artistic creation is itself a process of healing, a habitual action that settles the mind, so it is a state of enjoying melancholy and suffering.

Chini: Some viewers feel that Jo’s works have healing properties. Do you think this is because the viewers sense the healing relationship between these works and the artist?
Lu: This is on the level of the viewer. The effects of empathy should also be considered – that is to say the life and experiences of the viewer will influence their understanding of the work. If the work reflects their needs, then from Jo’s work they will perceive this and may gain some measure of healing. This is in itself quite remarkabl.
Chini: So are you saying artworks are open texts, only completed by the viewer’s own understanding?
Lu: That is exactly what I mean. Thus‘beauty’is not an essential quality of the works themselves, rather it is assigned by the viewer. You say something is beautiful, I say it isn’t, so is it beautiful or not? It isn’t the objects themselves that are beautiful, but whether you in your mind have the plane of beauty.

Chini: So, when viewers admire Jo’s work they do not require an answer to be supplied, but rather they need a space for their own understanding?
Lu: No artist could give a narrow answer. Instead, artists transport us to a more profound realm, rather like Jo’s None-Space. Jo leads us into deeper philosophical reflection. She will answer your questions, but afterwards you sink into a state where you discover you must do more to fully understand. Individuals, through the process of painstaking investigation, develop a deeper interactive relationship with the artworks. In fact, when I view and reflect on Jo’s works, I must also engage in introspection as I try to think of ways to further investigate Jo’s work so that I understand it and can help viewers come to their own understanding of her paintings. As for the viewers, well, if you are cultivated you will understand what you see; if you gain aesthetic knowledge you will understand what you see. If you have not experienced loneliness, how can you understand Jo’s paintings? This issue is all about the individual viewer.

Chini: Would you be willing to share with us how you felt the first time you saw Jo’s work?
Lu: At first I wasn’t really sure who the painter of the painting I saw was, and so I saw Klein’s blue and felt that this artist was trying to express a kind of energy, that she must be using her painting to express a mood. I felt that she must have used so much energy to paint that blue light circle. We hadn’t seen anyone doing something like this before, so it was as though she created a whole new feeling. We are attracted by new feelings. We always stress that artists must have‘a fresh, unique style’, or‘techniques that are hard to substitute’, or be‘of good character and cultivated’. As we have skimmed through more than enough art history and are familiar with the art market, we are called experts. As we have seen enough, we can judge if you truly are creative or not. Because if your work is merely a copy of someone else’s, then there is no need to talk of philosophy or the psychology of the artist.

Chini: What do you think is the distinction between Jo’s blues and Klein’s blues?
Lu: I say that stealing cleverly is called absorbing, stealing without being clever is plagiarism. If she were to use just the one blue, without the surrounding halo, that would be plagiarism. But Jo, after her blue inspiration, also constructs dot, line, aspect three dimensional spaces and these show her uniqueness. After the point of inspiration, she has taken things forward and developed them. She has used her own thoughts and philosophy to create different artworks which have no relationship to those of Klein, but that are intimately related to Jo herself, that are related to her philosophy and to her psychological state, and thus those works are completely and utterly Jo’s.

Chini: You say that in Jo’s works you perceive a new form of expression. As a respected observer and advisor in Asian art circles, and having seen so many artists and their work, what do you feel is unique about Jo Hsieh’s work?
Lu: Her works are basically minimalist art, artworks with the ability to convey mood and feelings. Her paintings are minimalist art abstract paintings. But I dare not define her in one word, as we still need more time to tell where she really fits.

Chini: Many contemporary artworks, in either creative techniques or in concept, stress the encounter between East and West, for example:‘Eastern in ideology, Western in application’or the opposite. What is your opinion of this? Do you think this kind of perspective can be used to interpret Jo’s works? How should they be interpreted?
Lu: Klein’s blues are part of a Western tradition of art. Jo herself holds a PhD in philosophy, and so she certainly has encountered the thought of Lao-tze and Chuang-tze. The earliest Chinese abstract art is grass script, a cursive style of calligraphy, and so here there is a collision between the philosophy of east and west. Jo has combined Klein’s blues with the flowing strokes of Chinese calligraphy – these are the flame-like lines in her work. She has absorbed the energy of grass script, made it her totem, and each stroke of her brush has the fluent, flowing style of grass script. She has ringed each stroke with a halo, creating an effect whereby energy is created at the level of the structure of the most microscopic elements of her work. In her Pigment series, the circles she creates are like the circles of Tai Chi, the Absolute, the Ultimate. The representation of Tai Chi is the ancient Chinese idea that heaven is a circle, and earth is a square. So the circles in her work are the circle of heaven, and the frame of the painting is the square of the earth. This principle extends to the realm of how to conduct oneself and behave with integrity – outwardly regulated and principled, inwardly tolerant and forgiving. So we can discuss Jo’s work in terms of Chinese art, or in terms of Eastern philosophy. She expresses Chinese concepts of Tai Chi in her blues and paints the Tai Chi of her heart. Amid her deep blues and sky blues, and the S shapes and points found in her Tai Chi, we find the flowing strokes of the Pigment series. You can see the way in which some strokes curve and bend, and so you could also use the Eight Trigrams of Tai Chi to interpret Jo’s works. She uses other forms to represent the psychological condition of Tai Chi, what she refers to as‘None-Space’. She likes Klein’s blues, she likes Tai Chi, but from them she has created new forms which belong solely to Jo’s own blues and Jo’s own Tai Chi – her None-Space.

Chini: Overall, then, Jo’s works are not distant from life at all, but are connected to everything?
Lu: The‘tragedy’and‘humor’I mentioned today are Tai Chi.‘Passing through life in a tragic mood’is black,‘Passing through life in a tragic mood, transcending it with a humorous mood’is white, but black and white exist together. The extreme point of white is black, black in extremity is white. Your sadness or tiredness is black, when you grope blindly in your suffering, searching for wisdom, and afterwards are happy once again, this is white. The wheel comes full circle and it creates energy and potential as it does so, in an infinite ever-revolving cycle. If humour and comedy can be used to transcend the world then this is saying‘I accept’, and life will become more stable. Thus in Jo’s works, we can read much life experience. In understanding her works, we can grasp at the unlimited energy of life. In actual fact, a truly profound artwork can never be explained too clearly, as any explanation is related to the viewers’own aesthetic appreciation of the work, their viewing experience, and breadth of their knowledge. So today I hope to inspire viewers, for true difference is reflected in them and their differing appreciation. Art is at once simple and complex, at once repetitive and myriad in its variety. It seems simple on first glance, but after deeper investigation, your senses will discover the boundless potential within them. This is Tai Chi, and this is the relationship Jo’s works hold with life.

Chini: Finally, if you could use one sentence to describe the relationship between Jo Hsieh’s work and life aesthetic, what would you say?
Lu: It would be precisely the words of Zong Bai-hua that I started with:‘Passing through life in a tragic mood, transcending it with a humorous mood.’This is the‘none-space’of life. They that reach the realm of none-space earliest will be the happiest. Jo calls this state none-space, for art lovers like myself it is a‘spiritual home’. We art lovers wallow in the atmosphere of art. From it, amid all the suffering of life, we find pleasure and, ultimately, we gain a measure of wisdom. Finally we reach a space inside our own minds, the‘spiritual home’. Having reached this space, we become both‘connoisseurs’ and‘collectors’, and understand the principles of life. This is a most beautiful condition, the ideal world expressed in the Tai Chi. Although it is very hard to attain, happiness lies on the road towards it. It is very hard for us to reach this plane as we are, after all, mere individuals. However, all it needs is that we are at heading in the right direction and we can be happy.

Jimmy Lu, former auctioneer and advisor for various large auction houses across China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, secretary of the Taiwan Art Galleries Association, China Shanghai and Beijing International Gallery Exposition Art Committee Member, visiting professor at the China Central Academy of Fine Arts since 2004. He is currently the senior consultant and auctioneer for the Taiwan Art Galleries Association, the consultant for Art Taipei, Young Art Taipei, Shanghai Art Fair, and Shanghai Hosane Auction Co., Ltd. .He is also the host for Art ABC, IC Broadcasting Company.